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	<title>Comments on: A New World</title>
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	<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/</link>
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		<title>By: Vitruvius</title>
		<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/#comment-46397</link>
		<dc:creator>Vitruvius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2020 11:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=86029#comment-46397</guid>
		<description>I give you guys a challenge, and you give up.  Not what I expected from you.

The point of challenges like these isn&#039;t to point out &lt;em&gt;why&lt;/em&gt; it can&#039;t be done.  It&#039;s to show &lt;em&gt;how&lt;/em&gt; it &lt;em&gt;could&lt;/em&gt; be done.  To achieve results, however distant.

Personally, I can&#039;t accept the ideas that a world like Mars is unterraformable, or that there&#039;s no benefit in it.  Earth can&#039;t be everyone&#039;s home forever, and where there&#039;s a will, there&#039;s a way - especially where science is concerned.  The older generations (you guys) taught me that with the space program.  I also can&#039;t accept the idea that y&#039;all would give up so easily.  There are many routes to terraforming, and barring victory, you still could have aimed for highest score.

It&#039;s sad.

I&#039;m sad.

You guys can do better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I give you guys a challenge, and you give up.  Not what I expected from you.</p>
<p>The point of challenges like these isn&#8217;t to point out <em>why</em> it can&#8217;t be done.  It&#8217;s to show <em>how</em> it <em>could</em> be done.  To achieve results, however distant.</p>
<p>Personally, I can&#8217;t accept the ideas that a world like Mars is unterraformable, or that there&#8217;s no benefit in it.  Earth can&#8217;t be everyone&#8217;s home forever, and where there&#8217;s a will, there&#8217;s a way &#8211; especially where science is concerned.  The older generations (you guys) taught me that with the space program.  I also can&#8217;t accept the idea that y&#8217;all would give up so easily.  There are many routes to terraforming, and barring victory, you still could have aimed for highest score.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s sad.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sad.</p>
<p>You guys can do better.</p>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/#comment-46263</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2020 03:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=86029#comment-46263</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;via chrome&lt;/p&gt;

edit: DBE confirmed on chrome and different computer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>via chrome</p>
<p>edit: DBE confirmed on chrome and different computer</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Vitruvius</title>
		<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/#comment-46246</link>
		<dc:creator>Vitruvius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=86029#comment-46246</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d normally do it entirely raw, but ever since the HTML 5 update, I&#039;ve given up on effective DIY HTML work.  I&#039;m not sure &lt;i&gt;why&lt;/i&gt; they felt the need to obfuscate simple commands, but there you go.

Maybe when v. 6 rolls out, we&#039;ll have the old setup (or a relative analogue) back.

*EDIT*  Got an &quot;Error: Internal Service Error&quot; when posting this one too.  I don&#039;t think the code likes me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d normally do it entirely raw, but ever since the HTML 5 update, I&#8217;ve given up on effective DIY HTML work.  I&#8217;m not sure <i>why</i> they felt the need to obfuscate simple commands, but there you go.</p>
<p>Maybe when v. 6 rolls out, we&#8217;ll have the old setup (or a relative analogue) back.</p>
<p>*EDIT*  Got an &#8220;Error: Internal Service Error&#8221; when posting this one too.  I don&#8217;t think the code likes me.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/#comment-46237</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:05:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=86029#comment-46237</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A question for V:&lt;/p&gt;

(Edit: Yup, happened again. Error message and subject line strip. Thinking it is post related?

I see you did a lot of HTML formatting on your post. Well done! We haven&#039;t had that sprit here for a while, and it had to take some time. Did you construct in the HZ editor, or did you cut and paste from another source? This site gets weird about code.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A question for V:</p>
<p>(Edit: Yup, happened again. Error message and subject line strip. Thinking it is post related?</p>
<p>I see you did a lot of HTML formatting on your post. Well done! We haven&#8217;t had that sprit here for a while, and it had to take some time. Did you construct in the HZ editor, or did you cut and paste from another source? This site gets weird about code.</p>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/#comment-46232</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2020 00:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=86029#comment-46232</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yeah, no.&lt;/p&gt;

I&#039;m familiar with the magneto shield, but I think it has huge problems. The counter weight is good, but natural objects in Lagrange Points still bounce around a lot. Give that disk a good size CME and see what happens. And the energy required is huge, I don&#039;t think solar power is up to the job. Furthermore, the sun/mars L1 is too far away, in my opinion. Mars sits in the tail of the magnetic shield, not in the middle.

Even with the hole in the middle, sunlight gets diminished by shading or diffraction. A hole is a lens. So now you have to build space mirrors to add light to the planet.

Over compensating for loss is just turning up the faucet on the bathtub with the open drain - still a huge waste of resource. Two steps up, one step down. 

As far as the the amount of material currently being stripped from planetary atmospheres, I saw a paper recently about that. If I find it, I&#039;ll post it. Lack of data from other planets challenges conclusions.
 

As far as activating the core, well... First you&#039;ve got to drill down that far, on an inhospitable planet. Second, earth magnetic dynamo is created in the outer core. It&#039;s the frictional effects of the inner core and the mantle that keeps the outer core dynamo moving. The heat comes from radioactive decay in the inner core. You&#039;d have to keep dropping nukes down an impossible hole forever to keep it going. And how do you get that balance of solid inner / fluid outer core maintained?

(Edit-the glitch happened on this comment)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, no.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m familiar with the magneto shield, but I think it has huge problems. The counter weight is good, but natural objects in Lagrange Points still bounce around a lot. Give that disk a good size CME and see what happens. And the energy required is huge, I don&#8217;t think solar power is up to the job. Furthermore, the sun/mars L1 is too far away, in my opinion. Mars sits in the tail of the magnetic shield, not in the middle.</p>
<p>Even with the hole in the middle, sunlight gets diminished by shading or diffraction. A hole is a lens. So now you have to build space mirrors to add light to the planet.</p>
<p>Over compensating for loss is just turning up the faucet on the bathtub with the open drain &#8211; still a huge waste of resource. Two steps up, one step down. </p>
<p>As far as the the amount of material currently being stripped from planetary atmospheres, I saw a paper recently about that. If I find it, I&#8217;ll post it. Lack of data from other planets challenges conclusions.</p>
<p>As far as activating the core, well&#8230; First you&#8217;ve got to drill down that far, on an inhospitable planet. Second, earth magnetic dynamo is created in the outer core. It&#8217;s the frictional effects of the inner core and the mantle that keeps the outer core dynamo moving. The heat comes from radioactive decay in the inner core. You&#8217;d have to keep dropping nukes down an impossible hole forever to keep it going. And how do you get that balance of solid inner / fluid outer core maintained?</p>
<p>(Edit-the glitch happened on this comment)</p>
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		<title>By: podrock</title>
		<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/#comment-46225</link>
		<dc:creator>podrock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2020 23:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=86029#comment-46225</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been having the same problem. I&#039;ll discuss on your test thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been having the same problem. I&#8217;ll discuss on your test thread.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/#comment-46214</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2020 20:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=86029#comment-46214</guid>
		<description>The last three posts I put up in response to your question all had banner introductions, but these did not appear!  Instead, the banners were ignored and the opening lines of text were put in their place instead.

Sorry about that, but how can I terraform Mars when I can&#039;t even get my computer to work?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last three posts I put up in response to your question all had banner introductions, but these did not appear!  Instead, the banners were ignored and the opening lines of text were put in their place instead.</p>
<p>Sorry about that, but how can I terraform Mars when I can&#8217;t even get my computer to work?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/#comment-46213</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2020 20:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=86029#comment-46213</guid>
		<description>We can&#039;t install a new mag field on Mars, all we can do is replace the stuff we lose due to a lack of mag field.  This is possible in principle, but how much ice are we going to have haul in from Saturn to do it?  And for how long?

This is not a &quot;challenge&quot;, its a fantasy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We can&#8217;t install a new mag field on Mars, all we can do is replace the stuff we lose due to a lack of mag field.  This is possible in principle, but how much ice are we going to have haul in from Saturn to do it?  And for how long?</p>
<p>This is not a &#8220;challenge&#8221;, its a fantasy.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/#comment-46212</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2020 20:39:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=86029#comment-46212</guid>
		<description>Sure, we can neutralize perchlorates in the lab.  But can we do it all over the planet on an industrial scale so we can do agriculture?  And that&#039;s only the first objection that comes to mind.  This is a different planet with a  different evolution.
We&#039;ll run into problems like this in everything we try.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, we can neutralize perchlorates in the lab.  But can we do it all over the planet on an industrial scale so we can do agriculture?  And that&#8217;s only the first objection that comes to mind.  This is a different planet with a  different evolution.<br />
We&#8217;ll run into problems like this in everything we try.</p>
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		<title>By: ER</title>
		<link>https://www.habitablezone.com/2020/12/05/a-new-world/#comment-46210</link>
		<dc:creator>ER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2020 20:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.habitablezone.com/?p=86029#comment-46210</guid>
		<description>Ultraviolet light from the sun dissociates 2H20 -&gt; 2H2 + O2.  Normally, the two species would quickly recombine, but with the low gravity, the hydrogen preferentially escapes the planet, and the oxygen oxidizes into the iron in the rocks.  That&#039;s why its called the Red Planet.

If the O2 concentration in the atmosphere is high enough, the UV turns some of the oxygen to Ozone, 3O2 &lt;-&gt; 2O3. Note that that&#039;s a reaction that goes both ways, ozone is notoriously unstable. Some ozone converts back to oxygen, but the O3 concentration is now in equilibrium, forming a UV shield for the surface.  But without lots of new oxygen being pumped continuously into the ionosphere this can&#039;t happen.

Ir would have happened here on earth, too, (although it would have taken much longer due to our higher gravity) but we have plenty of water and plenty of photosynthesis here to replace the O2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ultraviolet light from the sun dissociates 2H20 -&gt; 2H2 + O2.  Normally, the two species would quickly recombine, but with the low gravity, the hydrogen preferentially escapes the planet, and the oxygen oxidizes into the iron in the rocks.  That&#8217;s why its called the Red Planet.</p>
<p>If the O2 concentration in the atmosphere is high enough, the UV turns some of the oxygen to Ozone, 3O2 < -> 2O3. Note that that&#8217;s a reaction that goes both ways, ozone is notoriously unstable. Some ozone converts back to oxygen, but the O3 concentration is now in equilibrium, forming a UV shield for the surface.  But without lots of new oxygen being pumped continuously into the ionosphere this can&#8217;t happen.</p>
<p>Ir would have happened here on earth, too, (although it would have taken much longer due to our higher gravity) but we have plenty of water and plenty of photosynthesis here to replace the O2.</p>
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